Marii calugari/duhovnici - de unde stiu sa sfatuiasca asupra problemelor laice?

[Fani71]

.. citatele din sfintii parinti care vorbesc impotriva iondepartarii femeii de labiserica si de la impartasanie cand are ciclu. Ei gandeau altfel aici ca parintele Cleopa... Daca tie, Anca, ti se pare firesc sa iesi din biserica cand ai ciclu, mie personal mi se pare de-a dreptul revoltator, pur si simplu. Adica eu vin la liturghie, ma rg, sunt in mijlocul ei si trebuie sa ies, de parca as fi catehumen din vechime?

1) Sf Ioan Gura de Aur , comentariu la Tit 1:15

"All things are pure. God made nothing unclean, for nothing is unclean except for sin only. For [sin] reaches the soul and defiles it... (And) when the soul is unclean, it thinks all things unclean. Therefore, scroupulous observances are no mark of purity, but it is the part of purity to be bold in all things ... moral. What is unclean? Sin, malice, convetousness, wikedness."

si mai jos dupa ce discuta si de altele:

"You see how many forms of uncleaanliness there are. The woman in childbed is unclean. Yet God made childbirth and the seed of copulation. Why then is the woman unclean, unless something further is intimated? He [Moses] intended to produce piety in the soul, and to deter it from fornication... But these things now are not required of us. But all [attention] is transferred to the soul.

A se vedea Matei 15, 18-20 la care probabil face aluzie.

2) Sf. Grigore cel Mare,intr-o scrisoare catre sf. Augustin de Canterbury care il intreba despre unele practici din VT, e si mai direct:

"A woman should not be forbidden to enter Church during these times, for the workings of nature cannot be considered culpable, and it is not just that she should be refused admittance, since her condition is beyound her control. We know that the woman who suffered an issue of blood, humbly approaching behind our Lord, touched the hem of his robe, and was at once healrd of her sickness. If, therefore, this woman was right to touch our Lord's robe, why may not one who sufferes nature's courses be permitted to enter the Church of God?"

NB A intra in Biserica era echivalent pe vremea aceea si cu a te impartasi.
Dar mai jos e si mai explicit:

And if it is objected that the woman in the Gospels was compelled by disease while the latter are bound by custom, then remember, my brother, that everything that we suffer in this mortal body trough the infirmity of its nature is justly ordained by God since the Fall of man. For hunger, thirst, heat, cold, and weariness originate in this infirmity of our nature; and our search for food against hunger, drink agannst thirst, coolness against heat, clothing against cold, and rest against weariness is only our attempt to obtain some remedy to our weakness. So if it was a laudable presumption in the woman who, in her disease, touched our Lord's robe, why may not the same concession be granted to all women who endure the weakness of nature?"

Tot din sf. Grigore cel mare, un citat mai pedagogic sau cu sens pastoral:

"A woman, therefore, should not be forbidden to recieve the mistery of Communion at these times. If any (women) out of deep sense of reverence do not presume to do so, this is commendable; but if they do so, they do nothing wrong. Sincere people often acknoledge their faults even when there is no actual fault, because a blameless action may often spring from a fault. For instance, eating is no fault, but being hungry originates in Adam's sin; similarly, the monthly courses of women are no fault [asta-i pt prietenul Emanuel ;-)], because nature causes them. But the corruption of our nature is apparent even when we have no deliberate intention to de evil, and this corruption springs from sin; so may we recognize the judgment that our sin has brought on us. But let the man who deliberately commits sin bear the unwellcome punishment of his wrongdoings. So, when women after due consideration do not presume to approach the sacraments of the Body and Blood of the Lord during their courses, they are to be commended. But if they are moved by devout love of the holly mystery to receive it as pious custom requires, they are not to be discouraged."

Multumesc, Fani pentru citate.
Fiind in englez, parca nu recunosc stilul de adresare al Sf. Ioan Gura de Aur, care parca ti se adreseaza chiar tie, cand citesti cele scrise de el; ori in textul respectiv se vorbeste foarte in general. dar aceasta e numai impresia mea. Voi cauta si in romana citatele respective.
Cele citate de tine au mai degraba un stil vestic, nu ortodox. Iarasi, parerea mea; poate ma insel.

[ory]

Eu cred ca, mai degraba ne definesc pe fiecare citatele pe care le aducem in vedere, pana la urma credinta proprie cu cea universala ne da dreptate fiecaruia in parte,fiindca, daca vrem gasim ceea ce cautam,si cautam ceea ce ne caracterizeaza.
Ce minunat !!! Toata lumea multumita, pana la urma.

[Fani71]

În prealabil postat de Anca-Miha

Multumesc, Fani pentru citate.
Fiind in englez, parca nu recunosc stilul de adresare al Sf. Ioan Gura de Aur, care parca ti se adreseaza chiar tie, cand citesti cele scrise de el; ori in textul respectiv se vorbeste foarte in general. dar aceasta e numai impresia mea. Voi cauta si in romana citatele respective.
Cele citate de tine au mai degraba un stil vestic, nu ortodox. Iarasi, parerea mea; poate ma insel.

Imi pare rau ca nu le am pe romaneste.
Poate ti se par vestice pt ca spun ceva ce nu se mai spune acum ;-)

Sfantul Grigorie cel Mare a fost papa al Romei in secolul - na, ca nu mai stiu acum, 5 sau 6. Este deci occindental, de pe vremea insa cand nu erau despartiti de noi, mult ininte de filioque si alte probleme, si este un mare aparator al ortodoxiei. Este cinstit si la noi mult, este in calendar. O sa caut daca vrei datele exacte, dar acum ma duc sa ma culc ca iar am depasit mult ora...

[AlinB]

În prealabil postat de Anca-Miha

Multumesc, Fani pentru citate.
Fiind in englez, parca nu recunosc stilul de adresare al Sf. Ioan Gura de Aur, care parca ti se adreseaza chiar tie, cand citesti cele scrise de el; ori in textul respectiv se vorbeste foarte in general. dar aceasta e numai impresia mea. Voi cauta si in romana citatele respective.
Cele citate de tine au mai degraba un stil vestic, nu ortodox. Iarasi, parerea mea; poate ma insel.

Probabil n-ai citit nici o lucrare Patristica in engleza..de asta nu intelegi diferenta :))
Nu intamplator traducerile necesita mai mult decat "google translate" ele sunt si adaptari.

Roaga pe Fani sa-ti dea sursa exacta a traduceriilor (banuiesc care este) si ai sa gasesti acolo si lucrari ale Sf. Ioan Gura de Aur traduse in engleza si care le avem traduse si in romana.
Fa o comparatie.

Sau, si mai simplu (gasesti si singura) o Biblie in engleza cu cea in romana..

Sau e de a ajuns sa compari Biblia Sinodala cu traducerea IPS. Anania si ai sa vezi de ce traducerea estea pana la urma o arta..

[Fani71]

În prealabil postat de AlinB

Probabil n-ai citit nici o lucrare Patristica in engleza..de asta nu intelegi diferenta :))
Nu intamplator traducerile necesita mai mult decat "google translate" ele sunt si adaptari.

Roaga pe Fani sa-ti dea sursa exacta a traduceriilor (banuiesc care este) si ai sa gasesti acolo si lucrari ale Sf. Ioan Gura de Aur traduse in engleza si care le avem traduse si in romana.
Fa o comparatie.

Sau, si mai simplu (gasesti si singura) o Biblie in engleza cu cea in romana..

Sau e de a ajuns sa compari Biblia Sinodala cu traducerea IPS. Anania si ai sa vezi de ce traducerea estea pana la urma o arta..

Sursa este o carte despre diactonitele in Biserica primara:
Kiriaki Karidoijamen Fitzgerald: Women Deacons in the Orthodox Church: called to Holiness ans Ministry, Brookline, Mass: Holy Cross Orthg. Pr., 1998.

Nu am cartea, mi-a copiat o prietena capitolul care continea si aceste citate.

Insa se pot gasi pe internet imense resurse din Sfintii parinti in engleza. Daca vreti va pot da cateva linkuri.

Raman datoare cu citate despre altele, ca nu am timp zilele astea.

[AlinB]

Christian Classics Ethereal Library
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html