[Adriana3]

În prealabil postat de bairstow

Atunci Pavel nu a fost inteles bine si biserica nu a fost calauzita de Duhul Sfant deoarece avea prejudecati!
Pentru aceasta te-am lasat in Creta, ca sa indreptezi cele ce mai lipsesc si sa asezi preoti prin cetati, precum ti-am randuit: (Tit.1:5) Iar acestia au demigrat cuvintele lui Pavel si au asezat numai barbati! Trebuie sa intelegi ca acolo unde vorbesti tu de egalitate intre barbat si femeie Apostolul se refera la o anumita egalitate! Cand Iisus ne numeste prietenii sai nu inseamna ca Iisus e prietenul nostru decat in masura dreptului pe care ni-l da El!
Sunt convins ca exista si canoane in sensul acesta ca femeile nu pot deveni preotese decat prin mariaj cu barbatul preot. Iar daca biserica este stalp si temelie al adevarului nu putem venii dupa 2000 de ani sa schimbam acest adevar deoarece inseamna ca biserica nu a avut adevarul cu ea! Nu ne-a invatat ca femeia poate fi hirotonita!
P.S vad ca acest lucru este discutat in biserica catolica si adventista despre hirotonirea femeilor! E o moda de a ataca biserica in orice mod ! Cat despre homosexuali sunt pe aceasi pozitie cu tine daca as fi un eretic si as sutine aceasi idee asa cum susti tu hirotonirea femeilor! Ideea e ca Pavel nu a inteles mesajul iubiti-va unii pe alti si deci homosexualitetea e buna! Apoi daca Pavel a scris unele scrisori cand nu intelegea adevarul de ce nu le-a corectat?
P.S 2
Pe de alta parte tu faci un lucru bun fara sa iti dai seama. Arati cum Nt poate fi interpretat cum vrem noi. Biserica a rezistat 2000 de ani si inca mai rezista nu prin formularea de noi idei (bune sau proaste) ci prin ascultare!
Apoi cele doua versete care le citezi (din Pavel dar care eu nu le mai stiu si nu am chef sa le caut-daca vrei mi le arati tu) nu stim cum au fost scrise in ordinea timpului! Dar deja cred ca ar trebui sa dam ignor unor astfel de bazaconii sau ca administratorii sa inchida acest subiect care mai are si un titlu ofensativ!

Draga Bairstow,
Suntem in secolul 21 si inca sunt prejudecati, si pot sa iti demonstrez pornind de la tine. Uite, tu esti roman din Biserica secolului 21, secol in care avem acces atat de usor la informatie. Si in ciuda acestui lucru, pentru simplul fapt ca esti crescut intr-o biserica inca cu prejudecati (si apropos, si in Biserica Ortodoxa se discuta la nivel inalt problema hirotonirii femeilor), dar revenind, pentru ca esti crescut intr-o biserica care inca are prejudecati, ai si tu prejudecata ca, daca in Biblia romaneasca scrie "Pentru aceasta te-am lasat in Creta, ca sa indreptezi cele ce mai lipsesc si sa asezi preoti prin cetati, precum ti-am randuit" (Tit.1:5), pai inseamna ca Pavel a chiar pronuntat/scris cuvantul "preot". Ca sa nu ma acuzi ca vorbesc din ce stiu eu ce Biblie sectara, si avand in vedere ca sunt sigura ca nu stii citi greceste, limba dupa care s-a tradus in romaneste, m-am gandit sa intru pe site-ul unei alte biserici traditionale cu succesiune apostolica de 2010 ani, Biserica catolica. Pe site-ul Vaticanului gasesti Biblia in cateva limbi de circulatie internationala. Lasand la o parte Biblia chineza pe care nu poti sa o intelegi, uite ce cuvant este folosit la pasajul citat de tine: latina - presbyteros, italiana- presbiteri, engleza - presbyters, spaniola - presbíteros. Dupa cum vezi, nici urma de preot!
Si ia sa vedem ce inseamna presbiteros. Banuiesc ca nici prieteni greci nu ai. Eu sunt mai norocoasa pentru ca am si ii pot intreba. Iar ei au zis ca inseamna o persoana respectata de societate, considerata inteleapta si la care merg oameni sa ceara sfat.
Dar, cum suntem in secolul 21 si informatia este la indemana, am zis sa iti caut o definitie pe net. Cum ma aflu intr-o tara vorbitoare de limba franceza, prima definitie pe care mi-a aratat-o Google a fost cea in limba franceza data de Biserica catolica a Frantei si care suna asa:

"Vient du mot grec presbus signifiant "Anciens"; dans le sens des anciens notables ou chefs d’une communauté, comme en connaissait le judaisme. De ce terme vient le mot presbytre qui a donné prêtre. Le prêtre, dans l’Eglise catholique est celui qui a reçu le sacrement de l’Ordre, il n’est pas à comparer avec les lévites et les personnages désignés comme prêtre dans l’Ancien Testament."

Dupa cum vezi "Vine din limba greaca si sunt "Batranii" in sensul de batrani venerabili sau sefii unei comunitati asa cum era in lumea iudaica. Din acest termen deriva cuvantul presbiter care apoi a dat nastere cuvantului preot. Preotul, in Biserica catolica, este cel care primit sacramentul Ordinului, NU SE COMPARA cu levitii si personajele indicate ca si preoti in Vechiul Testament".

Dupa cum vezi, bateti campii bine de tot cand ii comparati pe preotii crestini cu preotii Vechiului Testament si inca folositi asta ca argument ca sa interziceti accesul femeilor. Presbiterii au fost oameni venerabili alesi sa conduca biserica pentru intelepciunea lor, si oamenii acelor timpuri ii vedeau doar pe barbati ca fiind capabili sa conduca ceva. Deci prejudecati.

Si poate ca engleza intelegi, ca m-am uiat si pe Wikipedia, si bine-nteles ca romanii nu au nici un interes sa scrie ce inseamna presbyteros din moment ce in Biblia romaneasca nu s-au mai obosit sa puna acest cuvant ci au scris direct preot (si apoi se lauda cu dreapta credinta in absolut toate... ). Asa ca uite ce zice pagina engleza, poate ca engleza intelegi, daca nu spune-mi si iti traduc:
Presbyter in the New Testament refers to a leader in local Christian congregations, then a synonym of episkopos (which has now come to mean bishop). In modern usage, it is distinct from bishop and synonymous with priest, pastor, elder, or minister in various Christian denominations.

The word presbyter derives from Greek πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros), the comparative form of πρέσβυς (presbus), "elder"[1].

The earliest organization of the Christian churches in Judea was similar to that of Jewish synagogues, which were governed by a council of elders (presbyteroi). In Acts 11:30 and 15:22, this collegiate system of government is seen in Jerusalem, and, in Acts 14:23, the Apostle Paul ordains elders in the churches he founded.

The beginnings of a single ruling bishop can perhaps be traced to the offices occupied by Timothy and Titus in the New Testament. We are told that Paul had left Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete to oversee the local church (1 Tim. 1:3 and Titus 1:5). Paul commands them to ordain presybters/bishops and to exercise general oversight, telling Titus to "rebuke with all authority" (Titus 2:15). It is certain that the office of bishop and presbyter were clearly distinguished by the 2nd century, as the church was facing the dual pressures of persecution and internal schism, resulting in three distinct local offices: bishop, elder (presbyter) and deacon. This is best seen in the 2nd century writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch.

The bishop was understood mainly as the president of the council of presbyters, and so the bishop came to be distinguished both in honor and in prerogative from the presbyters, who were seen as deriving their authority by means of delegation from the bishop. Each church had its own bishop and his presence was necessary to consecrate any gathering of the church.

Eventually, as the Church grew, individual congregations no longer were served directly by a bishop. The bishop in a large city would appoint a presbyter to pastor the flock in each congregation, acting as his delegate.

In Presbyterian churches, the office of bishop was abolished in the 16th-17th centuries, the heads of local congregations using the name minister. In this arrangement, the ministers' leadership is shared with presbyters (also called elders, usually elected by the local congregations), who help them shepherd the church while keeping their secular professions. In these traditions, the term presbyter is generally restricted to the Presbyterian churches, while other Reformed churches tend to use the term elder.

Modern usage
See also Priesthood, Presbyterianism, Methodism, Holy Orders
The Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Communion and other groups often refer to presbyters in English as priests (priest is etymologically derived from the Greek presbyteros via the Latin presbyter). Collectively, however, their "college" is referred to as the "presbyterium", "presbytery", or "presbyterate."

This usage is seen by some Protestant Christians as stripping the laity of its rightful priestly status, while those who use the term defend its usage by saying that, while they do believe in the priesthood (greek ἱερεύς hiereus - a different word altogether, used in Rev 1:6, 1 Pet 2:9) of all believers, they do not believe in the eldership of all believers. This is generally true of United Methodists, who ordain elders as clergy (pastors) while affirming the priesthood of all believers. The Anglican Diocese of Sydney has abolished the use of the word "priest" for those ordained as such. They are now referred to as "presbyters".

The term father for presbyters is generally restricted to Catholic and Orthodox usage, though many Anglicans and even some Lutherans will use the term, as well. It is not generally thought of as a title, however, but simply as an affectionate term of address for the presbyter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyter